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Postby Hyperborea » December 2nd, 2008, 5:56 pm

Ok, so I've read these reviews, looked over the RSoG website, and watched the YouTube videos but I still don't get what it is you learn from the system. What do you get from it that knowing where the notes on the fretboard are and how to build a scale won't get you? It seems from the discussion that with RSoG that if you learn the system you won't be able to say what note you are on using the system. Is that right? Is it just some set of elaborate pattern of "safe" notes?

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Postby Minotaur » December 2nd, 2008, 6:15 pm

I'm going to have to go through it again, because it was lost on me too. It may have been because I was tired when I went through it. So to be fair, I'll give it another look. I'm getting pretty good with the fretboard (the names of the notes above the 5th fret, that is). And it seems that the fretboard is what RSoG was focusing on. Maybe I'm wrong. :?
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Postby slejhamer » December 2nd, 2008, 7:37 pm

Hyperborea wrote: Is it just some set of elaborate pattern of "safe" notes?


Rather the opposite; it offers a very simple set of mini-patterns that let you "see" a scale from any point on the fretboard, either in a fixed position or up and down the neck. You know those five minor pentatonic scale patterns that nearly everyone learns? This makes those seem needlessly complicated. As Nick said earlier, it's like shorthand.

Hyperborea wrote: It seems from the discussion that with RSoG that if you learn the system you won't be able to say what note you are on using the system.


I think you still need to know the notes on the fretboard. The related issue I had with it, which may be what you're referring to, was the naming convention he uses for chords and intervals. That said, there is a logic to what he has done. It just didn't do the trick for me.

Hyperborea wrote: What do you get from it that knowing where the notes on the fretboard are and how to build a scale won't get you?


At the least, you get a simple visual application of the scale. Possibly more.

I like it for what I've gotten out of it; ymmv. I think it could be much more robust though, if a true "method" were developed around it, with a specific series of practice exercises, examples, etc. I know it's supposed to be about improv, so maybe that seems contrary, but I know from lessons I've had that a more structured approach to the building blocks can go a long way. My 2cents.
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Postby Hyperborea » December 7th, 2008, 12:36 am

slejhamer wrote:
Hyperborea wrote: What do you get from it that knowing where the notes on the fretboard are and how to build a scale won't get you?


At the least, you get a simple visual application of the scale. Possibly more.

I like it for what I've gotten out of it; ymmv. I think it could be much more robust though, if a true "method" were developed around it, with a specific series of practice exercises, examples, etc. I know it's supposed to be about improv, so maybe that seems contrary, but I know from lessons I've had that a more structured approach to the building blocks can go a long way. My 2cents.


Thanks for your reply. I've got still more questions though. Is RSoG really an end in itself? In other words, with it will you be able to play to your best or is it a crutch that gets you part of the way faster but makes it harder to go the whole distance?

Maybe an example? In basic multiplication (the times tables) the best way to go is brute force memorization. Once you've got all the table memorized from 1x1=1 all the way to 10x10=100 you can do it easily and quickly. But if you learn "tricks" on the way like learning 10x and then using it for 5x by just halving and learning 9x by using a trick on the digits (i.e. 9xZ -> (Z-1)x10 + (9-Z) so 9x6 = (6-1)x10 + (9-6) = 50 + 4 = 54). Those tricks get you going towards the goal faster but in the end you have to unlearn them as they slow you down. Is RSoG like those times table tricks?

I guess more than anything I fear learning something that will turn out to not only be a dead end and a waste of time but require extra time to unlearn. Have any of the music teacher on this site used this either for themselves or for their students?
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Postby Nick » December 7th, 2008, 3:48 am

What RSOG does is allows you to understand the pattern, but skip the thought process you just mentioned if you wish with a simple enough mnemonic. It is a way of seeing the fretboard, not of memorizing anything. This frees you up to be able to play anything, anywhere.

It's like having insight into what makes your analogy work, that all multiples of nine have digits that add up to nine and understanding why.

The method of insight is complete in and of itself. However, what you discover based on having this new insight is up to you. Whether or not you use it and sound good doing so is up to you too.
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Postby gnease » December 7th, 2008, 11:28 am

Hyperborea wrote:Maybe an example? In basic multiplication (the times tables) the best way to go is brute force memorization. Once you've got all the table memorized from 1x1=1 all the way to 10x10=100 you can do it easily and quickly. But if you learn "tricks" on the way like learning 10x and then using it for 5x by just halving and learning 9x by using a trick on the digits (i.e. 9xZ -> (Z-1)x10 + (9-Z) so 9x6 = (6-1)x10 + (9-6) = 50 + 4 = 54). Those tricks get you going towards the goal faster but in the end you have to unlearn them as they slow you down.


BTW, that's a trick you will need to unlearn and correct*. As written, your shortcut formula yields 9x6 = 53. OTOH, guess it supports your point ...



* the nine in the formula, should be ten
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Postby Nick » December 7th, 2008, 11:31 am

I glossed right over that part. :D
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Postby Nick » December 7th, 2008, 6:29 pm

and if you'd rather not spend your time trying to figure out all of that and grabbing the notepad every time you want to solo, maybe just go and buy RSoG

And we've been down this path before, RSoG isn't just a set of patterns, it is insight. If all you want is patterns, go and learn caged. In the case of RSoG the pattern is presented to show you the logic. It is one pattern, not a C an A a G an E and a D pattern. Nevertheless the pattern is just as effective at showing you where to play as CAGED.

You got a bunch of people in this thread who own the product saying it's worth the money, or well worth the money, or I think I said a must have and if I didn't it is a must have or it's worth much more than the $30. I don't know what else we can say or do to convince you.

Netzok, if you want to explain the logic of the fretboard and your insights, go ahead and do it in a different thread. Everyone would be happy to see it and ask you questions that you can explain.
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Postby Hyperborea » December 7th, 2008, 11:47 pm

gnease wrote:
Hyperborea wrote:Maybe an example? In basic multiplication (the times tables) the best way to go is brute force memorization. Once you've got all the table memorized from 1x1=1 all the way to 10x10=100 you can do it easily and quickly. But if you learn "tricks" on the way like learning 10x and then using it for 5x by just halving and learning 9x by using a trick on the digits (i.e. 9xZ -> (Z-1)x10 + (9-Z) so 9x6 = (6-1)x10 + (9-6) = 50 + 4 = 54). Those tricks get you going towards the goal faster but in the end you have to unlearn them as they slow you down.


BTW, that's a trick you will need to unlearn and correct*. As written, your shortcut formula yields 9x6 = 53. OTOH, guess it supports your point ...



* the nine in the formula, should be ten


D'oh. That's what I get for posting late at night when I'm tired (and had a few drinks). The 9x "trick" for 9xZ was to take the Z and subtract 1 for the tens digit and then take the tens digit and subtract it from 9 and that is your ones digit. So, as a formula it would be:
Code: Select all
9xZ = (Z-1)x10 + (9 - (Z-1))


It's actually a lot easier to do than it is to explain. I remember this being shown to my grade school class many years ago.
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Postby Hyperborea » December 8th, 2008, 12:02 am

Nick wrote:You got a bunch of people in this thread who own the product saying it's worth the money, or well worth the money, or I think I said a must have and if I didn't it is a must have or it's worth much more than the $30. I don't know what else we can say or do to convince you.


Nick, thanks to you and the others who've answered my questions. I'll think about getting it next year (soon to be heading out for XMas and not so much time to practice). You're right that $30 isn't that much if it's a good book but all the secretiveness gives me a feeling of Scientology or the Rosicrucians. That makes me a lot more reluctant to purchase it but the positive reviews here go a ways to counteract that.
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Postby Nick » December 8th, 2008, 12:30 am

It isn't a secret. You'll see when you buy it that it's a compact and easy to understand solution to a problem. The reason it seems to be a secret is that we are all respecting the effort put into making the book by the author. If we gave away the contents of the book, no one would buy it. :D
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Postby Nick » December 8th, 2008, 9:10 am

Netzok, I don't know why this book bothers you so much. Let it go man. There are so many bigger issues to worry about.

I'm not the only one saying it is a good thing, so please don't make it personal. You tried once before to make your own version with pictures and explanation and that didn't go over so well. I offered you positive critique on how you could make yours better. I encourage you to post your own views on how to best achieve insight into the fretboard elsewhere on the forum. I understand that you think that anyone, given a basic knowledge of theory, a piece of paper and a pencil can come up with their own method. Not everyone wants to do that. Not everyone can. I like RSoG and so do many others, if only for that fact that it gave me a shortcut to that insight.

I'm sorry, but because your comments here are off topic and out of line, I'm removing them.
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Postby ptrwagner » December 16th, 2008, 12:32 pm

I'm with Hyperborea, the comments on this board make me less reluctant to part with my $30.
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Postby georgejw22 » December 18th, 2008, 4:36 am

I see it as neither a "crutch" or an "end of all", but more of a stepping stone. I learned the information. I have used it, incorporated it, it has helped me move forward and I'm still learning from it and without it. It is not always implemented but now it's always there to help if need be. It hasn't restricted me from going my own direction or boxed me in to a safe zone. You have to spend the time with it though.

Note - I let my boss try it and he was confused from the word go and still is, but he's not as dedicated to the guitar as I am. :mrgreen:
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Postby Rgalvez » May 20th, 2009, 8:44 pm

It seems this thread has been sealed for months. Any updates about this website /method ?
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