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Postby dhodge » February 7th, 2004, 7:28 am

Hello to all

Let's get back with things, then. Up for discussion is the lesson Bookends, which, by the way, has MP3s by our own Alan Green. You can find the lesson here:

http://www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=60

While there are a number of interesting things to deal with in this piece, such as changes of time signature and picking two notes at once, I'd like to suggest that we initially turn our attention to the concept of inverted thirds.  As guitarists, you will find that your instrument is, no pun intended, exceptionally attuned to these intervals.

For an "extra credit" exercise, you might try to write out two scales (I suggest C major and G major) in inverted thirds and practice them on your guitar. If for no other reason than when we get around to learning some Van Morrison (Brown Eyed Girl, for example), you'll have a leg up on things!

Here's the C major scale to start you out:

E - - - - - 0 - 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 8 - - - -
B - 1 - 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
G - - - - - 0 - 2 - 4 - 5 - 7 - 9 - - - -
D - 2 - 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
E - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  

See you on the boards!

Peace
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Postby Rob L. » February 7th, 2004, 9:16 am

Alright, I checked out the article and now know what an inverted third is.  Will give this a go when I get home this afternnon. :D  Thanks Dave.

Rob
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Postby Violet S » February 7th, 2004, 6:49 pm

Thanks David, I've started on this one, it follows on well from House of the Rising Sun; thanks also Alan for the MP3s.

Cheers all
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Postby Violet S » February 9th, 2004, 5:50 am

Hi David,

I've written out the C major and G major scales in thirds and then inverted thirds, and been playing them and comparing the difference in sound between the non inverted and the inverted thirds.  It's a good exercise, where would you like us to go from here with this?

I looked up inverted thirds in the search function to do a bit more reading, and the three songs Yesterday, Babylon and Fields of Gold came up, so I looked them over.  Well, it's clear that when triads are inverted their sound and function alter, in Yesterday, you've used them as vocal cues (as you've stated), is this all I need to know for now?

Thanks, Allison

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Postby dhodge » February 9th, 2004, 7:17 am

[quote author=Aretha link=board=lessons;num=1076160506;start=0#3 date=02/09/04 at 05:50:37]I've written out the C major and G major scales in thirds and then inverted thirds, and been playing them and comparing the difference in sound between the non inverted and the inverted thirds.  It's a good exercise, where would you like us to go from here with this?[/quote]


For right now, this is a good start. You might also write them out in the keys of D, A and E, which are the other "guitar friendly" keys that you'll find yourself playing a  lot.

When practicing inverted thirds, I find that using the middle finger to play the lower tone allows me to switch quickly from pair to pair by using the index finger on the major thirds (for instance, C and E, F and A and G and B in the C scale) and my ring finger on the minor thirds (D and F, E and G, A and C, B and D). That's also a good way of remembering what kind of third it is!

Finally, a good thing to work out are thirds that are spaced apart by an octave. Technically I guess you'd call them tenths. The opening (well, actually pretty much all!) of Blackbird is probaby the best example, as well as the lesson on the Fleetwood Mac song, Landslide.

We will be using this sort of thing (inverted and regular and "spaced") a lot in solo acoustic guitar work (you can even find some in the latest lesson, Your Song) so it's just a good skill to work on.  
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Postby Violet S » February 10th, 2004, 12:49 am

Thanks very much David, I'll work through what you've written above, and write back if I have any more queries, etc, A
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Postby Rob L. » February 11th, 2004, 1:14 pm

[quote author=dhodge link=board=lessons;num=1076160506;start=0#4 date=02/09/04 at 07:17:33]


When practicing inverted thirds, I find that using the middle finger to play the lower tone allows me to switch quickly from pair to pair by using the index finger on the major thirds (for instance, C and E, F and A and G and B in the C scale) and my ring finger on the minor thirds (D and F, E and G, A and C, B and D). That's also a good way of remembering what kind of third it is!

 [/quote]

Dave, you're talking about your fret hand, correct?  I got Noteboat's book in the mail yesterday and together with the lesson I think I'm actually learning something.  

Thanks a bunch,
Rob

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Postby dhodge » February 11th, 2004, 9:16 pm

Rob

Fretting hand is correct, sir! And congrats on getting Noteboat's book. I have it on good authority that it's a great read.

Glad to hear that it's going well and hope things continue to do so!

Peace

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Postby Rob L. » February 17th, 2004, 8:00 pm

OK, I haven't had much time to spend on this lesson but I did get around to writing out the C and G major scales in thirds and inverted thirds.  I see what you mean by using your fingering to differentiate between major and minor intervals.

The G major scale in thirds just played straight out up the G and B strings.  For the C major scale I set the first 2 intervals on the A and D strings and played the rest up the D and G strings.  Does this sound correct.  It seems like there could be other ways depending on the sound and how much work you want your fingers to do.  Is this correct?

This theory stuff might sink in if I take it in small doses. :)

Rob
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Postby Violet S » March 10th, 2004, 6:14 pm

Here's a link to an article on inverted theirds and tenths and shows inverted tenths of G Major higher up the neck, I'm having a go at this too,


http://guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=336

:)
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Postby theGrimm » April 4th, 2006, 10:32 pm

I'm starting with this song, but I'm not getting that third C-measure, the one just before the outro. There is a symbol that looks like a hammer on top and bottom, joining two notes. Whassit mean? It looks the same in the tab. But since the notes don't change, it can't be a hammer on...can it?
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Postby dhodge » April 5th, 2006, 6:42 am

When I wrote this (ages ago it seems) I was still learning the ins and outs of the notation, so my apologies that it wasn't marked as well as it could have been.

But, in my usual rambling way, I did pretty much spell things out in the text:

This triplet has to replace one beat, so it has to be pretty quick (and that's why you should start slowly at first!). What we're going to do is a quick hammer on and pick off with the open E and G strings. Strike them once, then hammer on your fingers onto the F and A notes and then pull them of again. Try to pull them slightly down when you take them off. This will help sound the next set of open string notes. With practice, you will be able to do this triplet of notes with just one pluck of the strumming hand.


Hope this helps.

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Postby theGrimm » April 5th, 2006, 6:56 am

dhodge wrote:But, in my usual rambling way, I did pretty much spell things out in the text: <snip>

Hope this helps.

Peace


I guess I just got confused because you used different notation in the C-measure right before the outro, than to the notation in the Dm measure in the outro itself. But then I'm still confused...would you pull off and then hammer on in the C-measure, and hammer on and then pull off in the Dm measure?

Also, that C measure is in 4/4 time, but the Dm is in 3/8 time...
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Postby dhodge » April 5th, 2006, 7:32 am

Totally my fault there for misreading the original question. Sorry about that.

In the measure of C, the notes in question are tied notes. That means you only play the first pair of notes but hold it for the total number of beats for both notes. Since the first set are half notes and the second set are eighth notes, you hold them for two-and-a-half beats.

Slurs are notated in the same way as ties, but the notes (as you pointed out) change. When you see two of the same notes tied together, that's a matter of timing. You might want to read up on that in any of the articles on music notation we've got over on the beginners' pages.

Hope this helps and sorry for the confusion.

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Postby jimjam66 » November 2nd, 2007, 7:54 am

Maybe I'm just being thick, but I'm confused. (It's probably also fair to mention that I haven't touched a guitar for over a month until last night!) David mentions that what we have here are 'inverted thirds', which makes good sense - take a note, find the [MAJOR] third, then play it in the next lower octave, right? So for example if we have a high E, we'd be looking for the G# [MAJOR THIRD] immediately below it? Except we play the natural G [MINOR THIRD]! So to my mind what we should be talking about is a 'minor inverted third' (or should that be an 'inverted minor third'?)

Does it matter? Is there some convention that thirds are thirds, whether major OR minor? In which case how will I ever learn which is appropriate at a particular point? Or should I give up the guitar right now and switch to the triangle or the cowbell? :)

Yours in confusion,

David

PS: Apart from that this is a wonderful lesson - my wife even recognised the song on about my third run-through! Amazing!
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