Band Drama it's everywhere

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cnev
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Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by cnev » October 8th, 2012, 7:16 am

After reading Tommy Guns post I decided to add a bit of our recent band drama just because. Anyway any of you following any of the posts I've made on the band know drama isn't new to us.

Anyway we started with a new guitarist in April had 4 shows all of which went very well and then didn't do much since August since the drummer is on the road for 2+ weeks straight delivering cars. We had a false start auditioning drummers when he said his schedule would change to local. Well it didn't and his last stint on the road kind of messed up our scheduled demo recording.

So we decided it was finally time. He was back in town last week and wanted to practice so we got together (and had a great practice) but at the end of the night the simger told him this wasn't going to work and we need to move on unless he could committ which he can't because of his schedule. He was mad but really I don't know why, no one wants him out but it's impossible to do anything with his schedule.

So we had already lined up two drummers to audition as we all said we wanted to continue. One guy bagged out said he didn't like the music and the other was scheduled for last night.

The singer moved on Sat and asked us to help and me and the bass player went up. After we finished we deided to grab some pizza and beer.

So we are sitting there and I ask them what's the deal with Sunday audion and they said we are still on. I asked about the other guitar player and there was a little pause.....Rut roo something is wrong i thought.

So they tell me the other guy won't go if I show up....Really why? Well not sure but he says you don't communicate with him...and I say he never really says anything to me.

Anyway the whole situation then felt a bit weird. This guy can play and I never even thought there was an issu and the singer was suprised as well. Supposedly he has confided in the bass player but never said anything to me or the singer and the bass player couldn't really put in words as to exactly what his problem was.

It seemed a little strange that he wouldn't show up if I was there over something he never really mentioned.

The bass player said he tried several months ago but I blew him off. In some ways it's true but I didn't blow him off I just said yea and moved on.

One situation came up when we were playing some song (don't remember) and he told me to play a certain string of notes a particular way which was different than the way I learned the song. I didn't have a problem with him saying something to me but I just couldn't start playing it that way until I practiced it so we moved on.

Here's my issue and it could be me but...anyway I have the advanced* tab for all the songs we do. Depending what I am playing in the song I will work it out with my instructor. Over the years I've been with him I have learned that when he tabs a song it's pretty much spot on everytime and 100x time better than any tab,youtube or even printed sheet music. The reason I like it better than sheet music and I call it advanced is he includes the rhythm with the tab and also since he tags each section with a symblo a whole may take a page or two tops whereas the sheet music will be on 10 - 20 pages with all these confusing DS al coda etc signs and all the parts listed in there entirity which makes so a long pain in the butt song to deal with.

The other time was when we were playing Sunshine when they tried to tell me that it started on an F and it doesn't. My problem with that was they wanted me to start believing I was wrong when I insisted it was played this way.

I get the feeling that because I have been playing the least amount of time I don't know anything. But I remind them that the tabs I get are from a source that could run musical circles around them and that is my instructor, so when they argue about what I am playing they are really saying what he wrote is wrong and that almost never ever happens.

Anyway the whole thing sounded petty and I didn't want to be involved so I told them if they wanted to play with him go ahead no big deal on my end I wasn't going to lose any sleep.

I was supposed to hear from the singer Sunday he was going to call the guy about the audition and ask if he was going to come and then talk to me about the issue.

I told them they needed to decide what they wanted to do and I didn't want to force them either way.

To make a long story short we ended up playing with the drummer without the other guitar player and had a great time.

I guess for now I am still in the band and we will see if the other guy ever responds back to them about his plans. Unfortunately his stuff is at my house so that will be awkward for him to come get it.

The song remains the same.....
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Crow
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by Crow » October 8th, 2012, 7:32 am

Chris,

Ever think that your insistence on getting everything just like the record, just like the tab, just like your instructor said, just like whatever, might be a pain in the rear end?

Just sayin'. We've established over many months that our approaches to music are WAY different, and others here know you far better than I do, so anybody can correct me if I'm wrong... but everything I've picked up from your descriptions of band drama point back to the fact that your're a really demanding & difficult bandmate. It doesn't take much to be a demanding and difficult bandmate, but invoking your instructor definitely crosses that line.

Harsh. Sorry.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa

cnev
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by cnev » October 8th, 2012, 7:55 am

Crow glad you chimed in since you probably "view" me as difficult.

Here's the deal. I have never ever once brought up playing exactly note for note to anyone and never even mentioned my instructor or anything to these guys. I post it here but I don't say it. That's the issue i don't tell him how to platy anything I assume he learned the song and we go from there.

I have played on organized sports teams since high school and for 25 years afterwards. You name the sport and I was on an organized team baseball, football, golf, bowling and in all those teams dealing with hundreds of people over the years I have never had a problem with anyone or been told that.

I know you only seeing these posts and not knowing what went down you would tend to comment that way and I can't blame you you don't have enough evidence.

But a little background. we are a cover and by agreement we are going to play covers pretty close to the original. I mean we don't have lenghty conversations about it's what everyone normally does when they learn the saong and then we play it together. I'm not sure why people are hung up on this note fo rnote it's not like it's hard or there is anything wrong with it.

Anyway the de facto version has always been the original album/CD recording. If we wanted to play a "special" version we talk about and do it. we used to play "Still in love with you" by Thin Lizzy and we played the live version which is like 8 min long because it was so much better than the original.

i'm not hung up on playing a song anyway but you have to tell me.

Just a little stroy:

we are playing Jailbreak by Thin Lizzy and we were playing it and something sounded off. We talked about and I said there was an F in there and he said no way and his answer was for me to go watch youtube..OK first of all how many versions of Jailbreak are on youtube hundreds? I finally find out which one he's talking about and it's some live version of some one off concert...well no wonder we weren't on the same page.

If you are going to play a different version than the rest of the band then you have to tell everyone before we learn it that this is the one. I'm cool with that.

But he never said that all he said were we were playing it wrong and from my point that's the problem. The two or three times he told me these things he was either wrong or playing a different version.

By the way the other guys decided that they'd be better off with me since I am easy to get along with...despite my rants on Guitarnoise
Last edited by cnev on October 8th, 2012, 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by jwmartin » October 8th, 2012, 9:03 am

Things I've learned from my vast experience of being in a cover band for a year :)...

1. Everyone needs to work from the same version of the song. Whenever we add a new batch of songs, I zip up the mp3s and post them online for everyone to download. (to the RIAA, just kidding. I wouldn't dream of doing this, so please don't sue me.)
2. He who proposes it, better knows it. Whoever recommends the song, it becomes "their" song. They are responsible for listening to the band and making sure everyone is on the right track.
3. Have a reference copy at practice. In your situation, this is the most important thing. If you can't agree on the 1st chord of a song, queue it up and play along. It will be very obvious who is correct. Argument solved.
4. If anyone references a YouTube video where it's a 14 year old kid playing an out of tune Squier Bullet as "see, it starts on F", you are allowed to punch them in the nose. I do use 2 guys on YouTube as references when learning songs (on bass, there's a couple of those type guys for guitar too). But these guys are seriously good musicians and play along with the original track, so you can hear if they are right or not.
5. How the band sounds is more important than how you sound individually or if you are right or not. If you don't listen to each other, why play in a band?

cnev
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by cnev » October 8th, 2012, 9:32 am

Jeff,

I agree 1oo% with what you just said.

1) I offered to send everyone the songs cut them a CD whatever they wanted for that exact purpose and the other guy said he didn't want it he gets it off Youtube.. :roll: I can't get them to realize that it might not be the same version.

2) I have recommended a few not many so that hasn't been an issue.

3) I have my computer fired up with all the songs ready to be played through the PA if needed.

4) This is where the problem is I think sometimes he might but I'm not sure. My particular issue is that I already pay someone that I know is giving me an accurate tab..how..because when you play it you can hear it with your ears it's right on all the time. I really never bring this up but it's always in the back of my mind. These guys think that because I haven't played as long as them I don't know anything but that's not true. Sure he can whip through some solo's better than me but other than that there's no real difference.

5) This is the absolute most important thing..The band needs to be tight. I told this guy when he joined that I am there to lay down a solid rhythm for him, I'm not going to try and showoff or anything I just want to do my piece for the song and do it well.


Crow - there are a couple things maybe to clarify. Like I said I never bring up my instructor and what I post here is not things I say in person I'm more PC. What I have a problem with and you kind of see it the other way is why when he says something is wrong that I must be the one that's wrong? That's what I have the problem with. In the case of Sunshine I didn't say anything to him I never had that tabbed out I have what's called an Official Cream song book that has it in there that shows it i D like I was plying it but somehow I was the wrong that was wrong. I'm not a sheep and you can't make believe something just because you said it was so especially if your backing up your argument with "I saw it on Youtube"

I guess it comes down to I don't feel I get any respect and whatever I say can't be true, when in fact I wouldn't even say anything if I wasn't pretty sure.

Like I said I told these guys they could do what they wanted I would not make a scene or cause any drama and the decided he wasn't worth the effort so I guess I was vindicated to some degree.
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It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!

Crow
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by Crow » October 8th, 2012, 10:42 am

cnev wrote:Like I said I never bring up my instructor
Yeah. This must have been what confused me:
I remind them that the tabs I get are from a source that could run musical circles around them and that is my instructor, so when they argue about what I am playing they are really saying what he wrote is wrong and that almost never ever happens.
Sorry, my mistake. :?

I can only speak for myself: If someone told me to play my part the way his teacher said, I would suggest he get his teacher to play the part. Then I might start packing up, or we might start a conversation about band direction & creative freedom.
What I have a problem with and you kind of see it the other way is why when he says something is wrong that I must be the one that's wrong?
I don't see it the other way. I'm not saying you're wrong. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying it's not worth arguing about whether "Sunshine" has an F in it or not if a band member is going to quit over it. NO AUDIENCE ANYWHERE can tell the difference. However...
Like I said I told these guys they could do what they wanted I would not make a scene or cause any drama and the decided he wasn't worth the effort so I guess I was vindicated to some degree.
...clearly there's no problem on your end. Good for you. Again, my mistake.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa

cnev
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by cnev » October 8th, 2012, 11:43 am

Crow ,

Actually I misspoke I never told him that this is what my instructor tabbed and it has to be right. And from that yes you would be correct but it didn't go down like that. I think I mentioned that to the singer way after we had the discussion just as a way to say hey I have this tab from what I consider a reputable source that's all and in all honesty even though it costs a heck of alot more for him to tab a song than I could buy in the store I still prefer his tabs as being better. He's does transcription for books before I mean the guy is good real good so why not use the resource. But I never brought this up in a practice mainly because if I say I still take lessons then I really get the feeling I must not know what I am doing.

I can guess the impression you are getting from these and other posts that I am some cocky wise a** know it all that's obnoxious. But I am the exact opposite I am pretty shy and quiet most of the time and I have never been the one that has started a conversation about something being wrong.

I agree with everything you've said. Looking back at some things I posted I understand where you are coming from but if you met me i'd I think you'd have a different impression.

My point is I just want to do my part and make the band sound good. He doesn't play any solo note for note, but that's no big deal as long as we come out of it together and it's tight I don't care.

But maybe it's my background or maybe I'm anal but if you tell me something that I don't beleive is correct you at least need to tell me your source, and to say check it out on Youtube is BS to me. I'm not saying that there's no one out there thats any good on the Internet it's just I dont beleive unless I see ot hear for myself.

Actually though if you were there to witness this our conversations about music happened like 4 months ago and only lasted for about one minute or two and that was it. We never talked about it and everything seemed fine and we never had any issues since then. I think there has to be more to it than that. The drummer was the one that brought this guy in under dubious conditions and he has missed a bunch of practices when he decided he wanted to do other things so I think he might be using this as an excuse to quit, why he brought me into it I have no idea because even the singer was shocked over it and he was there when we supposedly had the original discussion so he knows how it went down.

Now maybe it was just the way I said it bought how do you guys go about it when you are playing and then all of a sudden you hear something is dreadfully wrong and I never said to anyone you are playing this or that wrong I said something is off that's all.

Anyway it's no big deal I'm comfortable either way, but on the upside what looks like the new drummer's good friend is a guy who is one of the best players in the area. I've played with him before at open mics and he's trying to get him to join. That would be a home run this guy can do it all.

I really dont want the other guy to quit I like to stick to what we have and wotk from there but it may not happen.
Last edited by cnev on October 8th, 2012, 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Crow
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by Crow » October 8th, 2012, 11:56 am

Between the two of us, I am by far the bigger wise a**. No contest. :lol:

I've read your band-drama stories for a long time, & the note-for-note thing always seems to be part of it, so I figured it is at least something to think about. If your remaining band mates have your back -- if you still have a band -- maybe it isn't.

EDITED because I didn't read your post close enough.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa

cnev
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by cnev » October 8th, 2012, 12:07 pm

No we have a new drummer and will get either our original guitarist back if he wants to or a new one.

Yea I have to recind the note for note stuff I know in a post it might come across that's the only way I go but thats not close.

The way I see it since we don't work on new songs together. You go home learn the original then if you want to rearrange it someone come to practice and show us.

I think what I really mean when I say note for note is. If someone plays it note for note I will like it, if someone plays a new arrangement well I will like it, but if it just sounds like they are trying to play note for note but not playing the riffs the same or leave out notes then I usually don't like it.

As for me in the band I don't even bring up songs aymore I learned along time ago it wasn't worth it so they pick the songs and I play them and I think it's my duty to learn my part and be prepared when we play and for me learning my part is learning the original note for note to start. Where we go from there I don't care.

We have already talked to the new drummer about changing up and doing some different arrangements of songs
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by Vic Lewis VL » October 8th, 2012, 2:13 pm

You say po - tay - to, I say po - tah - to....some of us like to play songs note for note - I do when I'm playing along with the radio - and some like to change things up a little - I do that when I'm playing covers. I don't see anything wrong with learning a song parrot-fashion...or playing it the same way. What's wrong with being RIGHT? If you're a "cover band," isn't the whole point of your existence to get as close as possible to the original songs so's that the audience will actually know them and be able to sing along?

I like your attitude, anyway...."I'm here to play rhythm, not to show off, but I WILL nail that rhythm part so's YOU can ego-trip all you want...." that's pretty much what I do when I'm jamming with friends. Someone's got to play that solid rhythm and play along with the bass & drums so's the lead guitarist knows exactly where he is. Ask Mick Taylor, ask George Harrison, ask John Fogerty, ask any lead guitarist - the really good ones will tell you they couldn't do what they do without a solid rhythm player to give them that foundation. Something to build on. And if the rhythm player knows the song inside out, forwards, backwards, under over sideways and down (sneaky Yardbirds reference there - been listening to them today!) then the lead guitarist should takes his cues from his rhythm man, bass man and drummer....not the other way round.

Funny thing - I sometimes play along with my own songs on Soundclick, for practice. I've noticed that not only do I never vary the rhythm guitar patterns, but I also follow my solos note-for-note every single time....

My advice? Keep doing what you're doing. Your bandmates have had long enough to get used to your attention to detail, and they haven't booked you an appointment at an OCD clinic yet.....someone's got to take the lead (or in this case, rhythm!) and point the band in the right direction....

Good luck, Chris!

:D :D :D

Vic
"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)

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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by jwmartin » October 8th, 2012, 7:26 pm

Riffs? Note for note. Don't go changing up the intro to Zep's Heartbreaker or Clapton's Layla. Solos? As long as it fits the song, have it your way. Chord progression? You gotta stick to the original (transposing for vocals is ok). That's been our approach and it has worked well for us. It also let's us add songs a little faster. The cool thing is, both our guitarists are good at improving a bit and they both have completely different approaches (one is more metal/heavy and the other is country/blues/classic rock). When we do Johnny B. Goode, one does the typical Chuck Berry solo and then the other goes into the wild, Michael J. Fox thing from Back to the Future.

The way I approach a bass line is to listen to the original and get a feel for it. I get the progression down and start trying to match the original. As long as I'm getting the feel right, I don't worry about every note. I've played in a band with a guitarist who wanted everything exactly like the record and that was too stressful and time consuming. I get down the signature licks and the rest I just go for the overall feel of the original. Like in Bad Case of Loving You, I make sure to get those little high notes on the bass (1:13 and 2:34 into the song) because people remember them and expect them.

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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by TRGuitar » October 9th, 2012, 2:59 am

Riffs? Note for note. Don't go changing up the intro to Zep's Heartbreaker or Clapton's Layla. Solos? As long as it fits the song, have it your way. Chord progression? You gotta stick to the original (transposing for vocals is ok).
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by cnev » October 9th, 2012, 4:08 am

One thing I have to say to you guys is although I always post this note for note stuff I have never ever mentioned that to anyone and said hey you aren't playing it note for note etc.

Vic I guess we are a bit alike in that sense. I know mygoal is to someday be a decent soloist (I have to put more time into that) but for now I am mostly playing rhythm and you are 100% correct it's my job to lay down a solid rhythm with the drums and bass. I'm not there to show off and to be honest I have no desire to I just want to make the band sound good.

Jeff again what you said I agree with totally. The current guitarists plays the solo's close to the original not exactly and that's fine with me they always sound good. I always play the rhthym the same as the original unless we've purposely done something different

The main reason I have always talked about it is that to me it was the best way to be able to measure my progress. It's instant feedback if you are playing with the CD you're either on it or your not. That's the main reason for my note for note stuff. I still consider myself a beginner with tons and tons of stuff to learn and by learning songs note for note it kind of gives me a sense of accomplishment when I actually can play them.

The drummer sent us an email and said the jam was great and wants to do it again on Thursday so I guess I fooled him so far. :lol:

As for the other guitarist he sent an email saying he was busy with work (he hasn't worked in awhile) and was taking time off. He didn't mention anything about me so I don't really know what his issue was.

I just want to play and be drama free that's all. The new drummer seems pretty physched about playing and I think he liked how we sounded the other day so hopefully it won't take to long to find another guitarist.
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by s1120 » October 9th, 2012, 10:35 am

A lot of drama can be avoinded buy just not getting sucked into it. Sounds like your going about that right. You told them that whatever they want for a band, let you know... so eaven thought the drama is falling around you, your kinda sidestepping it, and keepping it clean. Thats the way to go IMHO. Just keep it up... do the best you can, and enjoy the ride. Let the guys that want to cause truble move on to greener fields.
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cnev
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Re: Band Drama it's everywhere

Post by cnev » October 9th, 2012, 11:22 am

I really am about as drama free as anyone could be, the other guys that were in the band were drama queens and it was ridiculous.

I probably have given everyone the wrong impression about me and my talk about note for note. It really is not something I ever bring up it's just something I do personally when I learn a song I like to learn it as close to the exact notes as possible. That's it. I don't dictate that to anyone or have ever told anyone how or what to play. I just learn my part and when we play it I play it like it was recorded and to be honest it really doesn't matter to me what the bass player does (who listens to the bassline anyway... :lol: ) and if the guitar player wants to throw in a totally different solo it's fine as long as he plays it within the confines of the original, if wants to extend it out or do something different he needs to tell us what that might be.

As a matter of fact after the first couple times we played with this guy he complimented me on the fact that I played the rhythm to all the songs correctly and I guess the last few guys he played with didn't do that. So it seemed odd that now he would say that I am the problem.

When we started this a couple years ago with different people and were doing for fun I learned ral quick it wasn't worth arguing about what songs to play as soon you bring on up someone would say I hate that how about these and someone else would say yea how about these. Pretty soon so many songs are discussed and discounted we never got anywhere with agreeing on what actual songs to learn.

Well I did send him an email apologizing for something I'm sure what I did but we'll see I don't want to burn bridges.
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