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Jamie Andreas classical excellent- rock NOT

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Postby ATCDDD » July 30th, 2009, 3:26 am

I've started playing again after a bad technique induced injury.

I saw Jamie's stuff and bought her pack from the internet.

I play rock lead and was initially impressed when i saw her classical guitar demo but when I saw her pay rock lead it was weak, out of time and technically not strong at all.

I expect my teacher to be an expert in their field and would say her forte is not in rock lead.

In the DVD some of her rock playing is out of time and looks like she's struggling. Definately not a rock lead expert.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on her rock teaching credentials?

I have no bad vibes to put out- I was just looking for some guidance on the right approach to follow and I was just disappointed when i received the DVD in the post.

Any advice appreciated.
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Postby Vic Lewis VL » July 30th, 2009, 3:50 pm

Maybe this is nit-picking, but why would you try to learn lead rock guitar styles from someone who's well known as a classical guitarist?

Jamie's well known to us Guitarnoise folks, she has her own website and paid lessons, but still finds time every now and then to drop in with some useful tips - like, for example, she's added - in a positive way - to David Hodge's lesson on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps." She's given helpful tips on the same song in a beginner's thread.....I think that's a pretty cool thing to do. Free tips, from someone who makes a living from teaching guitar....yep, that's definitely VERY cool, for me.

Seriously, if you want to learn (rock) lead guitar, learn from a rock guitarist - if you want to learn classical guitar, learn from Jamie. You could do a lot worse. If you're serious about playing guitar, practise, practise, practise...

And I'm sure there must be a lot of good tips in Jamie's lessons that you CAN apply to rock guitar....

All the best,

:D :D :D

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Postby TwistedLefty » July 30th, 2009, 5:04 pm

Often Coaches/teachers are not as successful in their field of expertise, as the pros they are (well) paid to "teach".
we all learn according to our ability to recognise the lesson offered.
take what you need and leave the rest, but do so with gratitude and humility.

i would like to believe that you did not mean any affront to Jaime, but it kinda comes off that way a bit

+1 to what Vic said
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Postby ATCDDD » July 31st, 2009, 2:13 am

Hi,

Thank you for the feedback.

No affront intended, honestly!

I agree with what you have said, why go to a classical teacher for rock guitar?

Well, I bought Jamie's products as a result of her advertising for learning the secrets of playing rock guitar. The information I recived shows playing Jamie playing classical amazingly but her rock stuff really is quite off. The reason for my post was to express a certain level of disillusionment, I feel that if you advertise to be someone who can teach these "secrets" then the advertising should be clear and unambiguous. Unfortunately seeing the rock guitar playing examples of Jamie on her Youtube page as well shows that I was slightly misled. Her rock technique is not fluid, with some wrong notes- I was wondering if anyone else had had the same feeling from the rock point of view. Watch her play classical finger style and we have an angel.

From a classical perspective, clearly Jamie is an EXPERT in this area and an amazing player but please don't claim to teach something which clearly you are not proficient in because it raises false hopes and expectations in your students.

Can I take something from Jamie's books and DVD? Yes, the secret seems to me to boil down to teaching people how to play with minimum effort and economy of motion and a good speed buildup programme.

No disrespect meant. I hope my honest views do not cause offence.

Kind regards,

MC
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Postby Nick » July 31st, 2009, 3:10 am

Hi ATCDDD,

I didn't read your review that way at all. Glad you cleared that up for those who might.

And I have to say in your defense, if it said Rock Guitar on the DVD, then Rock Guitar is what you should expect, not classical.

Have you written to Jamie expressing your disappointment in the DVD?

I appreciate your honest review. Thanks much!
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Postby KR2 » July 31st, 2009, 4:42 am

I bought one of Jamie's packages about a week ago and have just started with it.
From the first chapter in the DVD I've discovered that I can't hold my electric guitar in a manner that makes it comfortable to play. I have to wrap my wrist around the fretboard in an awkward position and that will most likely cause tendinitis with prolonged use of that manner.
So I'm considering getting an acoustic guitar . . . most likely a classical . . . so I can hold it in a more vertical position rather than the horizontal position I'm using with the electric. The electric just doesn't sit in my lap vertically or with a strap.
One thing I've noticed from beginning to read one of the books is the importance of not tensing up while playing . . . something I do automatically . . . that's going to be a hard habit to break . . . and I've begun working on it.
I don't have much intention of playing Rock music . . . My intentions are more country . . . John Denver, James Taylor, Cat Stevens, CSNY or Beatles . . . with emphasis on finger picking. So I'm not too concerned about not be able to play as a Guitar Hero.
It's the rock that gives the stream its music . . . and the stream that gives the rock its roll.
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Postby ATCDDD » July 31st, 2009, 4:51 am

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback.

My advice as far as getting a good position when sitting with an electric is to try a strap- one that has a bit of grip on the underside- that wasy it'll stay in place. I've had exactly the same problem and this helped.

As far as Jamie's stuff is concerned- she's correct about minimum tension and economy of motion- AND LEARNING NEW STUFF NO TEMPO AND DEVELOPEING MUSCLE MEMORY!!!

This is where I fell down- rushed too much- did a 16 hour practice session and partially tore a tendon trying to do a fast double sextuplet pull-off run.

Now after 17 years of playing I'm going back to beginner's lessons and looking for anyone who can help me with my journey. At the mo I have not even re-introduced legato back into my playing.

I've haven't e-mailed Jamie, but I will just to express my feelings on this topic.

Thanks for the feedback.
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Postby cnev » August 18th, 2009, 5:29 am

ATCDDD,

Haven't seen jamie's stuff on rock guitar. I did buy The principles awhie back though, but I disagree abit with what Vic and Twisted said, if someone (like Jamie) advertises that they have a course in learning rock lead then that's what you should expect to get, I don't understand their comments that she is a classical guitarist so why would you go to her for rock lessons.

Maybe because she promotes it she should be able to teach it.

Since I haven't seen her rock stuff I can't comment
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Postby Alan Green » August 18th, 2009, 7:09 am

KR2 wrote:From the first chapter in the DVD I've discovered that I can't hold my electric guitar in a manner that makes it comfortable to play. I have to wrap my wrist around the fretboard in an awkward position and that will most likely cause tendinitis with prolonged use of that manner.


Y'see, Ken, that would suggest to me that you've got the guitar neck at the wrong angle; so you're not able to get the elbow, wrint and fingers in a straight line. I haven't looked in on Jamie's site for some time, but she certainly used to pay a lot of attention to eliminating tension in the body (particularly in that first book) and posture is a major contributor to that.

Jamie's stuff requires the occasional bit of thinking outside the box - if you can't get the guitar into a position where you can hold it comfortably, adjust the strap and try again, adjust your sitting/ standing position and try again, put your guitar in geek rock position and try again - I've known Jamie ask people to send in photos of what they're doing in an attempt to diagnose what might be causing a problem so you're not on your own when you get her stuff.


A :-)
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Postby jamiem » August 22nd, 2009, 7:22 am

Hi Folks,

Interesting discussion here. Let me try to shed some light on the confusion relating to my teaching of rock guitar, even though it is not my main gig.

First, a bit of background.

For several decades, even though my specialty has always been classical, I have had electric guitar students coming to me for lessons.
Often they have been playing for years, often they have had tons of lessons and used tons of books. Here are a few other common characteristics....

They cannot bend a string properly (as in good sound, pitch control, etc)

They cannot do vibrato

They cannot play fast licks

They know one or two scales which they play badly, and a few badly played licks

they cannot play anything through from beginning to end without falling apart

they are full of tension because they understand nothing about technique or how to practice.

They have been stuck here for anywhere from 5 to 40 years

Now, in my job as teacher, I have studied all the reasons for these conditions. I have analyzed what a bend is musically, and what the production of a bend is technically (movement of the forearm rotators while force is transferred by a rigid finger, not as is commonly done by students, which is mere "finger pushing"). I have seen that students cannot learn because, in addition to not knowing how to practice, they have no effective structure for learning the five pentatonics, understanding what they are, and the licks that come from them.

In learning electric myself, years ago, I went from teacher to teacher, book after book, to try to understand the actual mechanics of bends and vibrato, two of the most difficult techniques to learn, yet most fundamental. No teacher could do more than demonstrate, no book said more than "bend the string".


So clearly, a course in how to master the fundamentals of rock techniques was needed. Over many years of teaching, I created that course.

I created structures, exercises, etc, to address this, so that students could gain these understandings, and these abilities. My methods worked, and students who struggled with electric guitar for years finally began to "get it", and make progress. Many worked hard and became professionals. They are all over the world now, many of them teaching and using the same methods to help their students.

I never felt that just because I don't actually practice or pursue electric guitar myself that this resource should be witheld from the students who need it. So eventually, I formalized that course and offered it through my company.


My course puts and end to a hopeless situation for students. My site is full of electic players who owe their advanced abilities to the foundation they got from my work, including my rock course, which is all about fundamentals. If you were to visit my forum, where I guide students (for free) who are using my methods, you will see a couple of adults who have been trying to play electric for years with no progress, who are now developing nicely for the first time in their lives. They are overjoyed, and it is because of my rock course and my instruction.

http://www.guitarprinciples.com/forum/v ... 19ec9cb399




It is so important for students to realize that taking lessons from a great player means nothing at all. You do not go to a teacher to listen to them play. You go so that they can create a change in you, in the direction of improvement. The only value a teacher has is the change they create in YOU. I have seen hundreds of students, of all styles, who brag about the "great player" they studied with. They don't seem to notice that they play like crap! The only claim I ever make is that I can improve the playing of anyone who seeks improvement, period. Where did anyone get the idea that I claimed to be an "expert" at playing rock guitar! I certainly never said that. I claim to be an "expert teacher". I claim to be an expert at knowing why someone has trouble playing, and how to get them past that trouble. And I am that expert. That is what I do.


I would never claim to be an "expert" electric guitar player, that would be absurd. All developed players know that no one can be an expert, top of the line player in all styles! There just isn't enough time in a day, especially given the complexity of some styles. However, I will claim to be an expert, in fact I will claim to be THE expert at being able to take someone who has never gotten anywhere with any book, or any teacher ( and they usually have had many) and showing them what they are doing wrong, why it is wrong, and what to do about it. I will also claim to have created a course, that I call my "Rock & Blues Foundation Course" that explains completely what no other teaching resource even deals with. That I will claim.

There are plenty of students who, after understanding why they had all their playing obstacles, as a result of my instruction, went on to become extremely advanced electric players. All of this, even though I am not an expert electric player. I don't need to be in order to fix the electric players I teach. Mick did not have to be able to knock out Mr.T in order to teach Rocky how to do it!

Now, that being said, I have my limits. I would never get involved in teaching very advanced electric techniques, as in Vai, Satriani, etc. I leave that to the full time electric players. I cannot guide someone there because I simply don't know much about it, and have not traveled the path. I will of course, take any fingerstyle, classical, or acoustic player as far as they wish to go, because that is my main focus, and I have traveled the full road.

As far as timing, any solo classical player has a very different relationship to timing than a rock player. We do not play to drummers and rigid beats. We bend time, and shape phrases with it. So, that is going to grate on rock players, just like hearing fingerstyle players does with us classical folks. To us, most acoustic people have horrible tone. It is a different aesthetic. The tone for acoustic playing is actually great for that style, but not acceptable for classical style.

So yes, I am not a polished electric player because that is not what I do all day, it is not my love, although everytime I hear a great electric player a part of me wants to put away my classical and just wail for a couple of years! But if it hasn't happened by now, it probably won't. But I don't need to be a virtuoso electric player to repair the faulty foundation that so many students and aspiring players have. I just need to understand the fundamentals, and be able to convey them effectively, while providing a system for those fundamentals to become a real part of a students playing equipment. I have done that.

So I hope I have shed some light on this. I want to say I do appreciate the very respectful and mature tone of your discourse here, as concerns me and my teaching. I sometimes inspire some rather histrionic declamations on other guitar websites! You folks here are definitely in the upper echelon of guitar players when it comes to maturity and sincerity of desire for learning.

Of course, you have a great headmaster, David is a real peach of a guy! I noticed his work early on as of superior quality in terms of a teacher really dedicated to providing quality lessons to guitar players.

So the "take away" is this...............if you want to hear a great rock guitarist, don't buy a concert ticket for the Jamie Andreas Rock Extravaganza. But, if you are one of the millions of peopel struggling to get anywhere with playing rock guitar, and suffering from the fact that you can't seem to get anywhere, you just might want to check out "The Principles Of Correct Practice For Guitar", and the "GuitarPrinciples Rock & Blues Foundation Course"!



P.S. My first DVD..the companion to "The Principles" is not a rock method, it is a method that transcends and includes all styles. If you want to get a feel for the value of it to rock players, check out these comments on Troy Stetinas forum
http://www.stetina.com/cgi-bin/ikonboar ... ;topic=410
Best regards,
Jamie
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Postby cnev » August 24th, 2009, 9:09 am

Jamie,

Thanks for the explanation it makes total sense and I always believed someone didn't need to be the best at anything in order to teach it well and I think you have expressed that well.
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Postby Nick » August 26th, 2009, 1:18 pm

Thanks Jamie
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Postby jamiem » August 30th, 2009, 6:46 am

It is quite a coincidence, but we just got this post at the GuitarPrincples forum, which pretty much says it all in terms of the discussion here. Believe me, I did not write this myself, or ask for it!

Here is the post, the original is here................

http://www.guitarprinciples.com/forum/v ... 10a6#p3979

A post from the GuitarPrinciples forum..............

Thanks for the Principles...

Postby chiden7 on Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:23 pm


Jamie,
I'm am so glad that you published "the Principles of Correct Practice For Guitar" (that title strikes me a little funny, more like a doctorate thesis then just another 'Be a Ripping Shred Monster on Guitar' but I guess that's just one more thing that separates you from the crowd) because now I really feel like I can reach my full potential as a guitar player.

I've been playing for twenty years. Two years ago I decided that I will become the best I can be, I was not impressed with my playing and didn't really see any musical growth. I started getting all kinds of of books and dvd's that stated I would, with this one magic product, be a shredding monster. Of course most were just the same scales, chords, bits of theory - sometimes inaccurate - that every other course offered. Here's the sad part. When I did get a great DVD from a player I really liked, ie. John Petrucci, the examples that were shown were beyond my ability. I didn't give up and finally stumbled across your site when I was searching for speed guitar.

I read the reviews of the 'Principles' and decided that I HAD to get this book. It was a real - When the student is ready, the teacher will arrive - moment. From the profound to the blinding stupid, I found all kinds of things that I was doing wrong with my body. The biggest thing I got from the 'Principles' book was I actually enjoyed playing guitar - for 20 years I "enjoyed" playing, but wow, I had no idea how much TENSION I was hold in my arms, fingers, toes, stomach, etc.... I may have liked playing but my body was going through the pits of Hades to do the easiest things.

I'm so glad I didn't stop with just the one book from you. I've also picked up Scales Mastery, The Octave Exercise, Six Essential Scales, Hammer and Pulls and (drum roll) my latest buy--Rock and Blues Foundation Course!

I'm to lesson seven right now and loving it (I almost have a decent vibrato!)!! This is what I got into guitar for! Another happy thing is that I can now make use of the Petrucci and Troy Stetina material!

So, just wanted to say thanks.
Best regards,
Jamie
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Postby Eva » August 27th, 2014, 9:09 pm

Dear Jamie,

I do hope somehow that you will read this. I have been trying unsuccessfully to sign up on your Guitar Principles :
1. I registered with username EVA but received no response from an administrator activating my account.
2. I the registered with a different username Eva Tavares, and had an account activation message. But when I tried to sign in, I got a message saying I was permanently banned from your site, without ever having signed in.
3. For trouble shooting in both cases on is advised to write to your Board Adminstrator/ Team but on clicking that link it say you have to be registered and signed in to be able to contact any one.
4. I repled to the mail I got from your newsletter email but no avail.
5. I have written to coustomer service but no answer.
6.Additionally I have wrtitten atleast thrcie toyour customer service regarding the purchase of some materials. I live in India and have some queries regarding the download of a CD instead of a hardcopy of it.

I have had NO REPLY from anyone.And NO WAY to reach you.So I am trying my luck via other forums.

I have liked your materials very much and very much hope to be a part of your forms and your classes.

Hopefully,

Eva

PS I would be grateful if there is anyone who can help contact Jamie.
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