"Robot" or "parrot" guitar players...

[domjohnson]

...or players of any instrument, for that matter. Opinions on them?

And what is a robot/parrot player, I hear you cry? Well, not literally a guitar-playing robot, you know, its a human, but they can only do exactly what they're told - that is, they can learn a tab and play it well after practicing it enough times (which, in my opinion, most guitar players can do anyway), but they can't do anything else - they can't be creative in music, and have no 'feeling'.

If there ever came a time to hire a bass player or guitar player into our band, we would never hire a robot player no matter how well he played - being able to play something by ear, even if its not too complex, is essential. What are other peoples' opinions?

[Cat]

My opinion is that only a newbie could come up with this sort of head-scratch!

Sure, you gotta know how to drive the bus...and maybe fix the bus, too.

Your robot will earn money. And believe me, he's got feelings, too. Maybe he's with the wrong people and should look for a "real" band. You should be glad he plays what's laid out and is dependable to do just that. With every member having a different direction...it'll never work. But he'll work...somewhere else.

Jus' sayin'...

Cat

[Niklas]

I'm with Cat. If there are four different creatvie forces in a band this will cause problem. Sometimes you want a drummer, bass- or guitarplayer play exactly what they are told if you written a song. Then those kind of people are very useful. And they would probably work very good in a studio.

And people who play by ear can be "robots" too. Playing by ear doesn't make you more creative. It's like you are asking two different questions in your post.

[Cat]

I've lost count of the bands that paid good money to get into a good ($$$) studio and end up with a mish mash of frenetic solos and a mini battle of the bands...

Let me say that I've PRAYED for other musicians that would just do the work as I outlined it and save the brainy bits for the pizza and beer (etc) after the outright work is done. But praying never worked...so I pay 'em.

Certainly, two questions were asked. There may well be another hidden agenda, as well...one I was guilty of long ago. I relied on someone's creativity to bring my own playing up from where it was.

My advice is to go with your crew...sort out a band leader...and hope everyone is as diligent as the bassist.

The person you described fits pretty good the description I've heard made of George Harrison.

Cat

[cnev]

I guess it all depends on what you are doing as a band but don't you want the player that can play a piece well. Unless he needs to write the music, whether or not he learned a song by ear or by reading tab or actual sheet music the only thing that matters is if they play the song well. That's all the audience is going to hear, no one cares how they learned it and I have to agree learning it by ear (although a neat skill) has nothing to do with it and doesn't make it any better.

[Crow]

I guess it all depends on what you are doing as a band

That's it. If the band is committed to "just-feel-it" freedom, you want the "just-feel-it" kind of player. If your job as a band is to play note-perfect cover versions, you want a player who can learn the parts note-perfect. (I have never thought rock (or jazz) should be played that way, like 19th Century chamber music, but it can be.) A well-rounded musician should be able to play either role.

[cnev]

Unless you are a jam band or any band whose live shows are built around purely improv then yes it's important otherwise even if you aren't playing songs note for note you still are going to need to practice whatever "arrangement" you are playing so it really wouldn't matter.

Seems like there is more to this question than you are posting.

So eactly what kind of musicians are in your band and what kind of music do you play? Do you improv at shows? And how do you know if someone is playing with feeling does that only happen if you learned a song by ear?

Don't get me wrong the ear thing is a great tool and I'd luv to be better at at it but it sounds like to you if you can't figure out a simple song with your ears you sux and I don't think that is a true statement.

[Vic Lewis VL]

I don't think there's any such thing as "playing without feeling"....most guitarists will start out by learning songs parrot-fashion, so to speak, but sooner or later you start to develop a FEEL for the music you're playing. Cast your mind back - if you're old enough! - to the days when there were no freely available tabs, no internet lessons, no free lessons etc. Those of us who started that way soon learned how to follow music by ear, or get left behind.

Go to any jam session - they may play a song you've played a thousand times, but you can bet your house it'll be in a slightly different tempo, key or arrangement to the one you're used to.

What you'd call robotic, I'd call muscle memory - you play something a certain way, whether it's a song, a riff, a fill, or even the fingering of a certain chord - play it enough times, it'll be engraved in your memory. What takes over, in a more experienced guitarist is instinct - that FEEL for the music I mentioned. I might learn a song by playing along with the record at, say, 92bpm - once I've played it enough times, I'll play it at 92bpm plus or minus a beat or so every time. But if I was jamming with some other guys who were playing the same song at, say, 100bpm, I'd be able to play along no trouble - my instinct, my feel for the rhythm would automatically compensate for the faster tempo.

Anyway, I'm a rhythm guitarist at heart - robotic is good! Although I'd prefer the term metronomic.....



Vic

[Alan Green]

I'd love to be able to parrot some of my material - that is play them the same from one night to the next rather than mess up a note here one night then a different note a different night. At the same time I'm happy that I can inject a different sense of emotion into a piece of music when I want to.

That's fine for my solo show, but when I turn out for ensembles there's a very different dynamic. Playing with the Essential Sounds Big Band I can swing rhythms, play around with effects, hold back a beat on that big chord that brings in the vocal, and generally work the syncopation to my heart's content. It doesn't happen that way very often because we're playing dance music and need to be good on the rhythms.

And then there's the guitar orchestras. I play for one and I used to play for two (I left Cambridge after playing on their 3rd album to join the Big Band). That's robotic. There is no messing around - you play exactly what's written every time or you're fired.

[jwmartin]

I think OP may be talking more about the players that learn solely from tab. My son had friends in high school who could play a complicated solo from a prog song, but you ask them to make a D chord and they don't know what you are talking about.

[Cat]

I don't think there's any such thing as "playing without feeling"....most guitarists will start out by learning songs parrot-fashion, so to speak, but sooner or later you start to develop a FEEL for the music you're playing. Cast your mind back - if you're old enough! - to the days when there were no freely available tabs, no internet lessons, no free lessons etc. Those of us who started that way soon learned how to follow music by ear, or get left behind.

Good insight, Vic...and GLAD to see you back!

When I was a kid, as you say, there wasn't any of this resource base to draw upon. I'd buy some sheet music to songs I felt musically and emotionally aligned with..."sorta learn it"...and take it from there. It never ended up as it was written in my head...but I was quite pleased to take it "somewhere else".

I'm a FIRM BELIEVER that if you put into that Happy Place where your music lives...somebody else's music...then get out of the way...magic happens.

Cat

[Liontable]

I'd have to respectfully disagree about the impossibility of playing without feeling. Compare it to telling a joke in a foreign language: it's one of the hardest things to do. You might know what you want to say, but you simply can't find the words and your timing is off. You stumble a bit before giving up defeated and continuing the normal conversation. The joke doesn't just fail to amuse the listeners, the groove inside your head is also gone.

This is an issue mostly for newer players, but the same thing can still exist with more advanced players. To make a choice, you have to see the possibility. Randomly experimenting is the only way to go about this, as most improvisation consists of things you already know (the things you most often think come more easily to mind). For me, this isn't an issue, and neither is it for most of you I believe. A bad note, or a completely failed riff is something to laugh at. I do know people, however, who cringe whenever they're off. There is no -fun- in fooling around.

Playing guitar, for them, is a challenge of dexterity. Managing to complete the obstacle course without errors is something to be envious of. They crave something entirely different than what I want while playing. There's nothing wrong with that. Some people play guitar to succeed as a professional, others just want to find a release, some do it to impress others.

There is always emotion. It does not necessarily guide your playing, that's something you have to learn to do. Expressing yourself is difficult at first, because the two seem so very detached initially. It's often called the curse of knowledge. Something being so simple to you that you really don't see how anyone can look at it differently.

[Crow]

I'd have to respectfully disagree about the impossibility of playing without feeling. Compare it to telling a joke in a foreign language: it's one of the hardest things to do. You might know what you want to say, but you simply can't find the words and your timing is off.

Even so, it's entirely possible to learn a joke perfectly in a foreign language & tell it convincingly. That is not the ideal way to tell a joke, but it can be done. It's a good analogy. While rock should be played with improvisational freedom, it doesn't have to be. It's called "performing."

[Cat]

Good insight, Crow...but I think he meant putting some of your soul into what you are doing is infinitely preferable.

One of my sons...18 now...is an accomplished guitarist for as young as he is. But everything he plays sounds like he's wearing gloves. His technique is pretty good...but it's emotionless. I spoke with his teacher last year and he said "let life kick him in the head for the next ten years or so and he'll get better".

I see his point...

Cat

[Crow]

Good insight, Crow...but I think he meant putting some of your soul into what you are doing is infinitely preferable.

I took his meaning. That's why I wrote, "That is not the ideal way to tell a joke."



Maybe we need a thread on the whole question of whether there ever can be "emotion" in music. That might be fun....